Curse

Theus · Dec 01, 2007, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaucE

You nerf UB and you will make the quests that require it quite hard.

Actually,thats questionable.

Considering that the Ursan Blessing you get from the Bear Spirit differs from the Elite you get from the quest.

Shadow_7 · Dec 01, 2007, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

What is this "balance" in PvE you're speaking of?

True, what balance?

The whole topic about Ursan (nerf or not nerf) is so funny.

Lord Sojar · Dec 01, 2007, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Your suggestion for the Ether Nightmare skill is....insane. If you did that, Mesmers would outclass every other class in PvE. I am all for buffing PvE Mesmer skills and making them Mesmer only, but what you suggested would make UB look like a joke. Oh hi thar Mr. Mallyx, no skills for you. PHAIL.

Mesmerway? Try Mesmerrape.

CyberNigma · Dec 01, 2007, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The only logic behind PvE-restricted skills is because they are better than the rest. If they were, they wouldn't need restrictions. This is the primary reason for making skills restricted - so that massively powerful one-dimensional skills can be introduced. If they were balanced, they would have no reason to be restricted at all - or to even exist separately.

If PvE was properly designed, with enemy groups that were designed around synergy rather than mass stats, then PvP balance would cease to be called such. It would simply become game balance, because the closer together the mechanics and group structure of PvE and PvP are, the less crossover effects of balances exist. Read that, and then read it again until you understand it. By introducing monster skills, area effects, PvE skills and so on, the game become split mechanically but still bound on levels which results in player dissatisfaction when skills are balanced. Either the game is completely split, or remains close together.

A purely PvE version of Guild Wars would be attractive to some people, but if I wanted a purely PvE game there are plenty of better options. Guild Wars' original appeal was in that it was a game built on skill, with both the PvE and PvP requiring group tactics, understanding, solid builds, and so on. There is not one PvE skill in this game that requires player skill for success. There is no understanding needed in a Paragon SY group. There is no need for a solid build when running Ursanway. By allowing these skills in the game, not only is the community split but one of the most unique factors of the game thrown away.

You're talking about one of the most boring possibilities of PvE I've ever heard. Anyone that's ever play CRPGs or even real RPGs in the line of table-top knows that you don't want every encounter to be balanced and synergistic. You want them to be unique. Barring some super form of AI that ANet develops, you can't do that with mobs. they will play the same. You need things like the fire imps that just spew fire all over you and ice imps that freeze you. There's nothingwrong with PvE and PvP together in its base form, the problem is the arena PvP that ArenaNet does. GvG and Heroe's Ascent. World PvP can work really well with PvE because they aren't isolated. In arena-based PvP you never have to worry about running into another team that will start attacking you. In arena-based PvP you never have to worry about a surprise mob popping up out of the ground right as you throw an arrow at a mob, or a mob's monk running and aggroing other mobs. You don't have to worry about a minion running over and hitting the wrong thing. You may say that if you're good you don't have to worry about that in PvE either. Well guess what. Guild Wars wasn't made for 'good' players. It was made for the casual player that has fun smashing stuff up (at least PvE, I realize they wanted PvP to go pro).

Arena-based PvP is absolutely nothing like PvE. It's a closed 1 team vs 1 team (or in some cases in HA multiple teams in a structured format). Their main failure in PvE is getting rid of random spawns from Prophecies in the later chapters.

EDIT: On a side note, there are extreme cases in the game - in particular prophecies. Cases such as mobs of minotaurs that are pure mobs of melee critters with no variation in their defense. Those are extreme cases. I think of them being there as targets for those that blow steam by doing nothing but slaughtering them.

There's a common theme in GW to crush anything that's overly popular. These are people having fun. If you're jealous of them having fun or jealous of the fact that you can't find fun in what they are doing, then leave the game. An alternative for those that feel they need some form of leetness in the game would be to go into Sardelac and try to convince ANet to introduce a diablo-style perma-death mode above and beyond Hard Mode. No matter how good you think UB is, it won't make someone without skill invincible. They'll eventually die and there's nothing consumables will be able to do to take away that death.

Esan · Dec 01, 2007, 12:42 PM // 12:42

I think UB would be almost completely fixed if they made Ursan Strike a touch skill, like it is in the non-elite blessing. I would wager that the spell range of Ursan Strike is a game bug.

Avarre · Dec 01, 2007, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

you don't want every encounter to be balanced and synergistic. You want them to be unique

Quote:

You need things like the fire imps that just spew fire all over you and ice imps that freeze you.

So you're saying mobs need to be unique, like mobs that are all the same and do the same thing.

Quote:

You're talking about one of the most boring possibilities of PvE I've ever heard. Anyone that's ever play CRPGs or even real RPGs in the line of table-top knows that you don't want every encounter to be balanced and synergistic.

Quote:

Their main failure in PvE is getting rid of random spawns from Prophecies in the later chapters.

You then proceed to say synergistic, balanced groups are bad and boring, and at the same time the game suffered from the removal of random spawns.

I have no idea what you're talking about anymore, but it's pretty clear you shouldn't be anywhere near game discussion. Your post contradicts itself more than it raises points.

Quote:

Guild Wars wasn't made for 'good' players.

It was made to reward skill. Hence, having more skill should propel you further. That's basic logic. Guild Wars was made simple for anyone to get into and play at the same level, not to complete everything without effort. You don't have to be good to get max gear and play in any area. Completing an elite area should require more effort and dedication to the game, and I don't mean grinding a title track, but becoming a decent player.

CyberNigma · Dec 01, 2007, 12:48 PM // 12:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

I think UB would be almost completely fixed if they made Ursan Strike a touch skill, like it is in the non-elite blessing. I would wager that the spell range of Ursan Strike is a game bug.

I think you're right there. I know when I was playing through GW:EN, when I found that out I was rather surprised. Being a warrior I was always going into melee range anyhow (habit), but I suspect that it isn't supposed to be a spell. I could understand them fixing that if it's the case. I also think you should go into bear/wolf/raven form, but thats another story :-) whether it would appease the whiners, I have no idea. I know it will not satisfy the PvP have-nots because it's still something they're deprived of.

Lord Sojar · Dec 01, 2007, 12:54 PM // 12:54

I love how we are arguing about balance in...lolz...PvE. Does anyone else find this gut wrenchingly hilarious? *explodes from laughter*

CyberNigma · Dec 01, 2007, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

So you're saying mobs need to be unique, like mobs that are all the same and do the same thing.

You then proceed to say synergistic, balanced groups are bad and boring, and at the same time the game suffered from the removal of random spawns.

I have no idea what you're talking about anymore, but it's pretty clear you shouldn't be anywhere near game discussion. Your post contradicts itself more than it raises points.

It was made to reward skill. Hence, having more skill should propel you further. That's basic logic. Guild Wars was made simple for anyone to get into and play at the same level, not to complete everything without effort. You don't have to be good to get max gear and play in any area. Completing an elite area should require more effort and dedication to the game, and I don't mean grinding a title track, but becoming a decent player.

You have no idea what an encounter is? Are you that dense or are you that new to RPGs? Maybe I'm just mixing table-top and CRPG and it may be my fault for the terminology. An encounter is an old RPG term meaning just that an encounter between the players and something else (an entire monster group, a trap, an npc, etc). An encounter being unique is not the same as everything within that encounter being unique. I can tell you're not a normal RPG player. A mob of fire imps is completely unique to a mob of ice imps. If they did what you were saying then we'd be fighting mobs that are within a very narrow window of variation in order to keep them balanced.

As far as skill, if you throw everyone in the game into a group and make them all pay UB, not everyone is going to succeed at the same level. You're not talking about no skill, you're talking about how you don't like the curve that UB gives to people. You're one of those guys that runs around saying 'well we had to do it the hard way so everyone else should as well'. If you're better than person B, then you'l be better than person B still with UB.

Truthfully, how does it affect you one single bit. It's about choice. You can choose not to play it. By leaving it in, you have that choice. The people that play it have the choice to play it or not. If you nerf it or take it out, you basically make your choice the only choice and take away their choice. EDITED OUT: Sorry that was not called for.

EDIT: I could be off and these people are not selfish but merely control freaks.

EDIT: This is really sick. Guild Wars was designed to be instanced in order to minimize the impact one player has on another when they're playing so that they could accomadate multiple paying styles. Only in towns (where interaction is limited to chatting and trading) do people mingle. PvP was made completely optional i order to minimize the effect of PvP on PvE and vice versa. PvE-only skills were created solely to allow skills that many PvE'ers may enjoy without impacting PvP whatsoever. YET, with all of this effort, there are still people whining and trying to affect people doing things that most of them admit they do not do themselves (in effect stuff that more or less does not affect them should they play with like-minded friends, guildies, or H/H). If there no end? Do you people want an observer mode in PvE so that you can monitor other players' instances and make sure they are 'playing the game the way you think they should'?

ryanryanryan0310 · Dec 01, 2007, 01:03 PM // 13:03

PvE only skills make this game so F@(&ing boring....

Lord Sojar · Dec 01, 2007, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryanryanryan0310

PvE only skills make this game so F@(&ing boring....

No, that would be you getting tired of the game and choosing to use them.

CyberNigma · Dec 01, 2007, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

No, that would be you getting tired of the game and choosing to use them.

You win. I don't care if you're for or against UB and pve-skills, you hit the target on the mark. If people don't like playing with UB and yet they still can't keep them from doing so then they are either addicted to the game, have no willpower, or really, really should move on to another game.

Thank you, Rahja. You are absolutely correct on this, and I hope others take a look at your post.

I, personally have not gone Ursan very much in groups or H/H. However, I want to keep the option, the choice for someday when I just wanna log on and kill shit without any difficulty and blow of steam. Sometimes after a long day of reverse engineering malware at work I don't want to think, but just escape into GW and kill shit. Something like that gives me that option. Every time something changes, me and people like me have to break out of our stupor to learn how to do something we did previously differently. I don't mind doing that on the weekends at all. Who knows, maybe the game's wrong for me at this point, but I don't think so because I'm not trying to affect changes onto other people..

As this poster said, you ALWAYS have the choice to say NO to UB. Your decision may mean you have to go with guildies or H/H, but then again the rest of us aren't here to provide you company and play the way you want.

aapo · Dec 01, 2007, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The only logic behind PvE-restricted skills is because they are better than the rest. If they were, they wouldn't need restrictions. This is the primary reason for making skills restricted - so that massively powerful one-dimensional skills can be introduced. If they were balanced, they would have no reason to be restricted at all - or to even exist separately.

- Exactly. PvE skills exist, because

1) Playerbase generally needs something to do after reaching level 20 and getting max armor. You can't really sell new chapters with zero achievement for player characters.

2) PvE and PvP are separate... and on the other hand they're meshed together. Resulting abomination is what we have here. Much easier to add arbitrary global environmental effects than even attempting to design more intelligent AI. PvE skills work as intended by balancing the game between human teams and AI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

If PvE was properly designed, with enemy groups that were designed around synergy rather than mass stats, then PvP balance would cease to be called such. It would simply become game balance, because the closer together the mechanics and group structure of PvE and PvP are, the less crossover effects of balances exist. Read that, and then read it again until you understand it. By introducing monster skills, area effects, PvE skills and so on, the game become split mechanically but still bound on levels which results in player dissatisfaction when skills are balanced. Either the game is completely split, or remains close together.

- It just shows that ANET has no idea how to design PvE. After all, Guild Wars is the first and only game ANET has released to date. Try-out, test. That's why they're seeking player input on every issue.

Turbobusa · Dec 01, 2007, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Ho and make necrosis cast in 1/4 and have no recharge, and remove the requirements.

Lord Sojar · Dec 01, 2007, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Pardon me while I interject yet again. Why are we discussing this? They are PvE only skills people, not PvP oriented. The only realm that balance applies is in PvP. While I may disagree about grind associated PvE skills (Ursan Blessing def included), I find PvE skills to be fun to tinker with. If people want to exploit them, fine, whatever. Seriously, it is PvE. The economy isn't going to suffer from the exploits. If anything, deflation is occuring, and things are cheaper then ever to get. So pardon me while I get a perfect Elemental Sword for 100k or less. Bye.

Seriously, the complaint-fest that is Riverside has to end. Ok, so the PvE only skills are overpowered, well DUH. They are PVE ONLY. If you nerf them, just allow them to be used in PvP and call it a day. I mean, Ursanway in Halls would just be amusing wouldn't it? Oh wait...

Here is the proposed nerf, at least I think.

Ursan Blessing: 25 energy, 10 sec cast, 300 sec recharge
For 120 sec, your skill bar is replaced with the following skills.

Ursan Strike- You strike for -10 damage. If this attack hits, you die.

Ursan Roar- You roar like the spirit of Bear. Your teammates die.

Ursan Rage- You move 300% faster. If you move, this skill ends.

Ursan Ursanism- You sacrifice 100% Health. All creatures of the same type within earshot lose 40 energy.

Mending- See wiki.

I know I would use it. At least it would be balanced. /endrant

Avarre · Dec 01, 2007, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

A mob of fire imps is completely unique to a mob of ice imps. If they did what you were saying then we'd be fighting mobs that are within a very narrow window of variation in order to keep them balanced.

Only in terms of aesthetics. The actual combat tactics to deal with them are largely identical. The purely offensive nature of both groups is also identical, resulting in one-dimensional play as the best method to deal with them. This is Guild Wars, not whatever old RPG you want to reference.

A synergized group has a near-infinite number of possible setups built around a certain framework. Prophecies has an incredible number of them, with great variation. Examples include Skeleton Packs in FoW, Avicara groups in Mineral Springs, and Stone Summit patrols.

Any sort of well-designed group, in whatever form it took, would result in a slightly better level of play at endgame areas rather than simply giving mobs 'Enraged' and ridiculous stat boosts in order to create a semblance of difficulty. If one-dimensional PvE (direct skill power against skill power) didn't exist, there would be less need for PvE-only skills and mechanics because the monsters would be on the same balance level as you, with the same skills - the skills being balanced for play.

PvE skills aren't 'giving players more choice'. If anything they're creating less choice by providing definitively better skills that don't rely on synergy, making the importance and freedom of build design less noticeable overall. These skills weren't needed in Prophecies, which was arguably the better game. The Desert wasn't hard for new players because of stat-boosted mobs, but because it was a learning curve of displaying proper tactics.

Quote:

I love how we are arguing about balance in...lolz...PvE. Does anyone else find this gut wrenchingly hilarious? *explodes from laughter*

Yes. That's the problem - any semblance of balance in the game is a joke now. PvE as a whole becomes more of a joke with every chapter released. At this point I don't see why all skins aren't craftable in gold, or why there are even attribute limits or a level cap. The mechanics of PvE from what they were are so violated it hardly matters anyway, and wouldn't having the ability to solo every area give more options?

Maybe, but changes like this are a good encouragement to stop playing, since there's not even a challenge.

Antheus · Dec 01, 2007, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

2) PvE and PvP are separate... and on the other hand they're meshed together. Resulting abomination is what we have here. Much easier to add arbitrary global environmental effects than even attempting to design more intelligent AI. PvE skills work as intended by balancing the game between human teams and AI.

FPS come to mind. Not even the slightest hint of separation - down-to-last-bullet identical environments.

But once players no longer find the challenge, they can either ramp up the difficulty, or play PvP.

Same skill sets, same environments.

Anet opted out for WoW audience. Simple as that. After all, look how many people are paying for WoW. If they are willing to put up with that nonsense - why not take their money. Put a few shinies in game, add 500 levels, and watch the $$$ rain.

GW's take on PvE was unique, but was ultimately killed by chapters. Rather than focus on good mission and quest design and adding challenge, they had to spend all the time on new designing art for continents. As always, quantity over quality.

GW's PvE problems come simply from delivery - not method. They had to make 20-ish new missions and an entire continent every 6 months. So they wasted 90% of effort on this, which left no time for improvements to gameplay.

MMOs cannot have separate PvE and PvP. But why try something new, when you can copy WoW, and go with grind. Cheap, and millions of people pay for it. Why not take their money.

Racthoh · Dec 01, 2007, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

It was made for the casual player that has fun smashing stuff up (at least PvE, I realize they wanted PvP to go pro).

The casual player isn't going to have the time to grind out their Norn title to use UB (or any PvE skill) to its full extent.

Lord Sojar · Dec 01, 2007, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

The casual player isn't going to have the time to grind out their Norn title to use UB (or any PvE skill) to its full extent.

Oh well, god forbid. While grinding is retarded, people do it. And, I guess (sadly), to them go the rewards right?

CyberNigma · Dec 01, 2007, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Yes. That's the problem - any semblance of balance in the game is a joke now. PvE as a whole becomes more of a joke with every chapter released. At this point I don't see why all skins aren't craftable in gold, or why there are even attribute limits or a level cap. The mechanics of PvE from what they were are so violated it hardly matters anyway, and wouldn't having the ability to solo every area give more options?

and yet PvE is what people still seem to be playing. PvE has gotten an expansion and a bonus pack. It has been PvP that has been the topic of discussion lately as to how to fix/inject new life into it. It's a matter of PvP is screwed up so let's go screw up PvE as well.

You are right, though about options. Again, many games introduce cheats and God Mode to give players that option. That doesn't mean that everyone is forced to use them. In fact, most people don't care whether other people use them when they're playing by themselves (like instances). They only care when there is some form of competitive Player vs Player play, which usually has a mechanism to disable cheats and god mode.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Maybe, but changes like this are a good encouragement to stop playing, since there's not even a challenge.

Maybe some people do need to move on then. I admit this isn't the game I first started playing either. It was pretty funny to sit there and watch mobs die because of meteors and fire. It sucked when my henchies stood there, but this is entertainment. I want to have and eat my cake at the same time.

When I want real challenge I play ShadowBane/Diablo HM (where dying actually has consequences) or one of the Halos on Legendary mode or God of War on God/Titan mode. OR (big key word here), I play an elite area in Guild Wars with a more difficult build. Wow, look at what I just did. I just made a choice. I CHOSE not to use an easy build. CHOICE. I used the thing on top of my shoulders to force myself to not give in to taking the easy way out without making other people have to make the same choice as me. Sometimes I choose to take a build I'm comfortable with (that word again), and sometimes I MAY choose to go into stupor-filled auto-pilot mode and just kill everything with a multi-necro or UB build. CHOICE. I've always loved the argument that more choice gives less choice that you are throwing at me. Thanks. You are basically making people choose something else. You're also trying to compensate for some people not having enough willpower to make choices.

This is very similar to what WoW is going through with the introduction of increasing leveling speeds in the low-to-median levels. Many people have been complaining about that. One person even admitted that he didn't like it because he had to do it the long/hard way when he went through it. It's tru that some things in this game promote people not having as much skill as some other people. Note: You don't have to play with them. The game si called Guild Wars. Build a guild or join one. Quit PUGing if it's that much of a bother.

EDIT: This stuff is definitely not unique to GW. Terms like Monty Haul, Munchkin, and Hack'n'Slash have been around for years. Some people really do prefer those types of play while many do not. What you think is screwing up the game is purely subjective. People need to quit trying to be everyone's savior by 'fixing' the game for them and making them better players.